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Trapping

Last post 12-16-2006, 10:33 AM by Tracy Frost. 64 replies.
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  •  04-18-2006, 1:21 PM 199 in reply to 195

    Re: Trapping

    Wow! This is a great thread. I am glad to see everyone here has a realistic view on "trapping." Tim your statements about Bruce's trapping are right on. Joseph Cowles and other first-generation students would say that bruce would shock you with his Pak. When Sifu Cowles taught, the emphasis was for us to pak harder than the actual strike. I remember many students complaining about sore arms LOL. Cory, excellent point about closing range. There is definitely safety in the eye of the storm.

    Trapping techniques are transitions as Ed described. Whether trapping to remove a defensive obstruction or checking a limb to limit it's motion, the criteria that is often overlooked is 1.Weapon 2. target 3. Purpose (application of force). To be brief, what tool are you using to deliver force and what is the striking surface (knuckles, fingers, palm)? What is the target (object, surface or point)? The tool must be appropriate to the target. Lastly, what is the purpose of you having to enter on someone and deliver force? How much force are you going to apply? Too much energy can make it easy for someone that is more skilled to use it against you and too little can escalate a bad situation into a worse one. Tim, I agree about the importance of sparring to test and refine but keep in mind when sparring the resistances of both individuals are at maximum and that is counter-productive to what the ultimate goal should be. In a real conflict, force should only be used to reduce the resistance of the opponent(s) and neutralize the threat as quicky and efficiently as possible otherwise things can really get out of hand quickly.

    Charlie Lewis, I am in awe of your street experiences and your dedicated service as a Peace Officer.

    Special thanks to Tim and Cory for the great opportunities this forum provides to grow and share.

  •  04-19-2006, 8:49 AM 200 in reply to 199

    Re: Trapping

    Hey, Kevin thanks for the post. It is always good to hear from experienced martial artist who have something to contribute to the forums. I just wanted to jump on here and make sure people understood what I was saying about sparring your trapping. When you spar your trapping or any stand up technique for that matter you will improve your timing, improve your ability to bridge the gap and improve your footwork just to name a few. Anyone who has ever trained with me knows that I love to spar everything....whether it is stand up or grappling weapons or empty hands it does not matter. I know that when I spar it I will improve in some area. I will also be able to find my weak areas and be able to improve them from sparring and training them more. Which is something you will want to find out in the class room and not on the street.
    Tim McFatridge
    Jeet Kune Do Kali Association - Co-Founder
    Prime Academy of Martial Arts - Chief Instructor
  •  04-19-2006, 1:11 PM 207 in reply to 200

    Re: Trapping

    To all who've responded,

    What a great forum this is!!!  Lots of great insights I'm reading.  I just can't wait to "touch hands", soon I hope.


    Charlie Lewis
    "...there is no spoon."
  •  04-19-2006, 4:26 PM 209 in reply to 207

    Re: Trapping

    I agree Charlie this is a good thread and everyone has very good insights. A lot of experience talking and that always helps keep things real.

    Kevin Capps congrats on your APA test brother.

    Tracy.


    Everybody is Kung-Fu fighting

    www.dppfilms.com
  •  04-20-2006, 7:56 AM 214 in reply to 209

    Re: Trapping

    Everyone be sure to check out the Trapping 101 article that went live yesterday!  Feel free to discuss the points made in the article.  We really like to hear any and all feedback.


    Cory Smith
    Jeet Kune Do Kali Association - Co-Founder
    Fighting Method University - Chief Instructor
  •  04-20-2006, 11:55 AM 218 in reply to 187

    Re: Trapping

    Ben, sorry I did not ready your reply until just now. I wanted to get back with you and touch on a few things you mentioned in your post. You mentioned that you feel in a street fight the person who gets up first will have an advantage...and this is true... BUT you have to keep in mind if you get in to a fight with someone that has any kind of experience on the ground then you will have a hard time getting up from the ground. Also you mentioned that you can not really fight anyone 1 on 1 any more especially if the person brings all of there friends when you tell them to come alone. There is one big problem with this situation...and that is when you are confronted by someone you have choices thbat you can make. Number ONE... which should always be the first is to try and walk away, Number TWO...if you can't walk away then try and talk your way out of it...Number three if you can't talk your way out of it and there is no way you can get out of the fight then you fight right then and there. You NEVER meet some one after school or after work just so you can fight them. You never know if they will bring a weapon or friends. Besides this you will not have that rush of adrenaline that you would have had if you fought in the heat of the moment. After you have had a little bit of time to think about it you may not want to really fight then you are faced with people thinking you are chicken and a coward for not showing up and  this all makes for a really bad situation. Iadvocate fighting as a last resort. You never fight just to fight. You need to make a rule for your self to only fight if you or your loved ones are facing harm or danger. Anyway I just wanted to give my two cents on the matter.
    Tim McFatridge
    Jeet Kune Do Kali Association - Co-Founder
    Prime Academy of Martial Arts - Chief Instructor
  •  04-20-2006, 11:56 AM 219 in reply to 199

    Re: Trapping

    YEAH, CONGRATS ON THE APA TEST KEVIN.
    Tim McFatridge
    Jeet Kune Do Kali Association - Co-Founder
    Prime Academy of Martial Arts - Chief Instructor
  •  05-02-2006, 4:48 PM 242 in reply to 195

    Re: Trapping

    I think as we train trapping we have to make sure we don't get caught up in the trap of routine. I feel we have to always train towards combat (unless its for the movies) and stay out of the confines of the routines we learn. "Be formless my friend" Learn it - Drill it - Use it

    Just a thought, keep this thread going its a good subject.

    Tracy


    Everybody is Kung-Fu fighting

    www.dppfilms.com
  •  05-03-2006, 2:57 PM 248 in reply to 242

    Re: Trapping

    Tracy...good point. When people ask me about trapping I always point out to them that trapping is something that you can not force. Instead you have to feel it. You will be going along and and all of a sudden you will just feel a trap. Instead of looking for a "place" to trap you have to feel it. Also be sure to spar your trapping. When you are in the tie up or when you are boxing or doing ground techniques this is the time to spar your trapping. Do not fall in to the trap of training drills. In real life your opponent will not stand there and let you run thru all your "drills" they will be moving around and fighting back. In my opinion this is the way you need to train your trapping and most of your techniques.
    Tim McFatridge
    Jeet Kune Do Kali Association - Co-Founder
    Prime Academy of Martial Arts - Chief Instructor
  •  05-04-2006, 1:20 PM 253 in reply to 248

    Re: Trapping

    Yes Sir Tim, I agree 100%. I feel we should use the progressive resistance training method from day one. By progressive resistance I mean imparting the technique to the trainee - drill for a few minutes - then in increments increase the speed/resistance/time change.

    We can teach a trap to a person just starting out (day one) and take that one trap from learning the position/structure to low resistance drilling to full resistance, i.e. try to make it work against an opponent who won't let you. And, it can be done in.. (dare I say ) 15 minutes! dun dun dun...

    As a JKDC/Kali man (which I am) we tend to get into the routine of training the drills for way too long, or I should say, some of us. I know I have in the past.  An example you say? No problem.

    Example: The wonderful contra sumbrada! ack! ( trapping with a stick) When we learn the 6 count, 3 count, or any of the 15 progressions we get stuck in the routines. 1, 2, 3 and now your partner 1, 2, 3 and repeat.

    If we train for combat/fighting be it in the ring on the street in box or with a fox. We train for REALITY. That's a big word and it IS the basis that most of us train martial arts. Keep that focus and train for it. Or train for the movies! Yeah that's cool. Since that's what I'm doing now. Here comes the shameless plug... www.dppfilms.com  check us out.

    Tracy.


    Everybody is Kung-Fu fighting

    www.dppfilms.com
  •  05-05-2006, 9:39 AM 256 in reply to 253

    Re: Trapping

    Training, of any type, is a progression.  I don't care what the "technique" is, you have to start somewhere and end up somewhere else.

    There are several phases:

    1. Cultivation
    2. Refinement
    3. Application
    4. Evaluation

    These phases are iterative, meaning that you will continously cycle through them.  This is the process of improvement.

    Since we are discussing trapping, I'll walk through this process.

    Cultivation - During the initial phase of cultivation, we learn the very basics of trapping; usually starting from a reference point, explaining the movements of the hands and feet.

    Refinement - Repeatedly work a basic drill to refine the movement of the hands and feet, body mechanics and, all the while, your partner learning the basic defensive skills.

    Application - Again, still talking about the first pass through this process, you disconnect from the reference point and, as your partner punches or reaches toward you, you engage into trapping using the reference point.  (I can hear what you are thinking... just bear with me for a moment.)

    Evaluation - Now that you've had a chance to apply what you've learned, reflect upon what is good or bad.  In this example, you might find that it's hard to get wrist to wrist contact and the reference point seems to be myth and legend.  However, your arm position could very possibly be in the same position as the reference position.

    As I stated this process is iterative.  Now we start to move into the next pass.

    Cultivation - Now that we've tried to apply what we've learned, we can modify the cultivation stage to reflect this new information.  We will now perform the "drills" while in motion.  Could easily start with a jab or a jab/cross and work trapping from a disengaged (no reference point) position.  The reference point is still there, it just that we are putting a lot less emphasis upon it.

    Refinement - We work the modified drill to improve speed, body mechanics and identification.

    Application - Spar it.

    Evaluation - Identify what's working and not working.  More importantly, identify the why... and keep in mind that it may not be the technique.

    And continue to repeat this process (thus why it is referred to as iterative)...

    The point is that there is a place for drills.  There is a place for sparring.  I really like how Paul Vunak puts it.  He defines two sides; "Self-Perfection" and "Self-Preservation".  On one side, self-perfection, you have people doing nothing but drills... they look awesome and can pull off incredible demos.  The problem is if you spend too much on this side, you won't really be able to apply the techniques when the pressure is on.  On the other side, self-preservation, you have people doing nothing but sparring.  Although they'll be pretty good fighters, the problem is that they'll be stuck in a small box.  By doing nothing but sparring, usually with the same people, your range of skills will be limited.  And, you'll only be as good as those your sparring against.

    Now, if you can balance between the two, you'll become an incredible fighter.  Drills are one method to work the self-perfection side.  Sparring is one method to work the self-preservation side.  By drilling, you'll find areas that you'd like to focus on during sparring.  By sparring, you'll find areas that you'll want to drill more.  It's a WIN-WIN combination.


    Cory Smith
    Jeet Kune Do Kali Association - Co-Founder
    Fighting Method University - Chief Instructor
  •  05-10-2006, 9:28 PM 283 in reply to 256

    Re: Trapping

    What else can you say about trapping? A trap is a trap. You train to train, or you train to fight. This thread could go on forever, discussing the intricacies of this and that, and I suppose you could pull in the esoteric zen relationship between one arm and the next, and you could even make hair splitting contrasts on one trap versus another trap, but when all the water boils out of the pot all you have is a trap, You will either use it efficiently in combat, or you'll get the krap kicked out of yourself for trying something you didn't train correctly. We've been all through this. For the most part the average fighter looks at a trap like a hog looking at a wrist watch anyway.



    A perfect blade requires a perfect temper
  •  05-11-2006, 11:42 PM 286 in reply to 283

    Re: Trapping

    Ah....my fine feathered brother. Tell them about the secret of Wing Chun GRAPPLING! dun dun dun. Oh yeah never mind I forgot we don't tell the secret stuff. OK I'll jump on Cory's Trapping while Grappling thread and post something there.

    Tracy.


    Everybody is Kung-Fu fighting

    www.dppfilms.com
  •  05-12-2006, 7:20 AM 290 in reply to 286

    Re: Trapping

    Whats up my martial brothers...I see Eddy is still trying to hold on to his secret techniques. Thats ok Eddy...I went to Lang Son and bought the book "Wing Chun: All the secrets you could ever want for all ranges of combat" I also bought a book that will teach you to beat a seasoned black belt street fighter in30 seconds or less...and the greatest part of all is it will only take me 5 minutes to learn...WOW! WHAT A BARGAIN!.  JUST KIDDING.. I am going to post on Trapping from grappling
    Tim McFatridge
    Jeet Kune Do Kali Association - Co-Founder
    Prime Academy of Martial Arts - Chief Instructor
  •  05-12-2006, 7:26 PM 297 in reply to 290

    Re: Trapping

    Ok, I decided that trapping standing up is useless. From now on the only correct way to learn trapping is from the ground. Just spit ballin here, work with me. What do you think? Oh yeah and Eddie, that pig from Green Acres can tell time brother, we are all in trouble now.

    I could be a little more serious but that's not really my style. So have fun train hard and be free of all classical mess. (unless you want to be in one of our martial arts films, in that case do all the routines and look really cool and forget real combat)

    Tracy


    Everybody is Kung-Fu fighting

    www.dppfilms.com
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